Did Jesus Die Because God Was Pissed And Couldn’t Forgive Us?

by Mike Edwards 

It can be confusing or turn others away from God by the way we talk about the Cross. A death doesn’t magically heal the pain we have caused God or others. The most healing we can hope for is when there is confession and forgiveness. A partner can never undo their betrayal, but taking responsibility and not blaming others can be a start toward healing. Many growing up in church may not have a problem with the idea of a child being sacrificed to appease God – neither did the OT gods – but an outsider using common moral sense has to wonder why a God who truly loves requires this. Does the Bible really teach God requires blood before forgiving?

Requiring a debt be paid isn’t really forgiveness.

If you owe a monetary debt and you are required to pay it off, how is that forgiveness of a debt? God can’t both forgive a debt and require repayment. Demanding the blood of an innocent party doesn’t legally resolve another person’s guilt.  My going to jail for a friend’s wrongdoing doesn’t somehow clear my friend of their crime. Guilt is not somehow magically removed by someone else’s confession of a sin they didn’t commit.

We may need to rewrite John 3:16 if Penal Substitution is true.

“For God was so filled with wrath against the world, that he sent his only begotten son to take the beating that we all deserved. That if anyone would want to escape eternal suffering, and would raise their hand and repeat this prayer after me, they would escape this horrible wrath. For the son was not sent into the world to change our minds about God, but to change God’s mind about us. So now that Jesus has taken the punishment for us, God can now finally love us, and forgive us.”  https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2018/11/for-god-so-hated-the-world/

Jesus and the Bible sometimes contradict the necessity of blood to forgive our sins.

Jesus forgave the paralyzed man before His death (Mt. 9: 6-9). Jesus sure seemed to accept supposedly evil people in society before His blood was spilt on the Cross. Why does the Bible talk so much about the Cross defeating evil, rather than the Cross defeated evil so God could forgive us (Gal. 1:4, I Jn. 3:8, etc.)? Jesus seemed on a mission to help us battle ongoing evil, not to pay for a once-for-all crime.

If blood was necessary for God to forgive, why did even OT writers over time begin to write that God doesn’t like animal sacrifices but contrite hearts (Ps. 51:16-17, i.e. Jer. 7:22, Amos 5:21, Micah 6:6). In the OT sacrifices were for unknown sins while known sins were punished not forgiven. Even in the NT God is said to not desire or be pleased with sacrifice and offerings though offered in accordance with the law (Heb. 10:8). These passages contradict passages that supposedly teach God required Jesus’ death to forgive us.

But, don’t Bible verses also say Jesus died for our sins?

Many passages insinuate that Jesus died for us because of our sins (I Pe. 3:18, Rom. 5:8, I John 3:16, etc.). They don’t say Jesus died for God’s sake. Jesus could have died because of our sins rather than for our sins. Jesus’ death actually proves violence doesn’t solve differences. Jesus’ message was acceptance and forgiveness lead to healing. If the Bible was crystal clear the purpose of Jesus’ death, why do so many theories exist as to why Jesus died?

Why did Jesus die? 

It is okay to speculate why Jesus was willing to die on the Cross. Biblical scholars haven’t figured it out. Jesus jumping off the Cross or overpowering His enemies was expected or hoped for but we would have learned nothing. We may still be talking about Jesus’ message of radical love as the best path for reconciliation, because He was willing to die rather than power over others. Jesus’ desire to inspire unselfish living empowered by our Creator is what really changes the world.  Jesus’ death rather than His power has inspired billions to live unselfishly.

Jesus’ death can enable us to not feel overwhelmed by guilt and truly loved by God. Terrorists blow others up for a message they feel strongly about. Jesus only blew Himself up for a message He believed very strongly in. Soldiers often sacrifice their lives because they are convinced certain freedom are that important. Jesus died in hopes we may understand true freedom is found by understanding what God is really like.

God forgives if we seek God’s forgiveness – no strings attached!

God is dying to forgive you of wrong doing in hopes to inspire you to change for your interests and the interests of others. God’s love and mercy, not God’s need for punishment, is our necessary nourishment in being the person we desire to be. That doesn’t get you a free out- of-jail card for a serious crime. That doesn’t mean when forgiving a friend that has betrayed you, that you have to pretend the relationship is back to the way it was. It takes two to tango. Unfortunately, most of us don’t seek forgiveness from humans or feel a perfect Creator accepts us and could simply forgive us for sins we have a hard time forgiving ourselves for.

A Nicer Person

by Rocky Glenn

In several discussions over the last week, the idea of being a nicer person since leaving religion behind has resurfaced. Although I fully intended to continue the Churchboy Soundtrackseries this week, I can’t ignore what I believe to be the prompting of the Holy Spirit to repost this post from last September. My life as a churchboy was truly a life filled with gritted teeth, clenched fists, red-faced anger fueled by feelings of never being good enough. I cannot thank Jesus enough for setting me free from those lies and revealing to me the real love of the Father.

I pray today you live a life knowing how loved you truly are.

A Secret No Longer  (originally published September 3, 2018)

Although I have never been much of a comic book reader, from an early age I have had an affinity for the Incredible Hulk.  I suppose the credit for this would belong to the TV series that aired during my younger years starring Bill Bixby as Dr. Banner and Lou Ferrigno as his rage-fueled alter ego green monster.   I can remember the incredibly durable stretch Hulk action figure I carried with me and destroyed for much of my childhood as well.  With the most recent incarnations of the Hulk coming from the Marvel Cinematic Universe over the last ten years, my love for the big green guy has resurfaced and he is undoubtedly my favorite character of all created within the superhero realm.  In 2012, after six solo films introducing the world to several characters, we finally got to see all our heroes unite on one screen as Marvel released the first Avengers film.  It is in this film as the Avengers prepare for the final battle Dr. Banner utters not only one of his most famous lines of the entire filmography, but arguably one of the most famous lines of any character throughout the twenty film universe as his transformation to big, mean, green and ugly takes place, “That’s my secret, Cap.  I’m always angry.”

Something about the nature of a man who loses all sense of control and becomes a different creature when angered and provoked has proved rather appealing to me throughout my life and at times I have found myself to have more in common with the normally mild mannered Dr. Banner than I would care to admit.  Throughout the television series and film universe, Dr. Banner takes many precautions and makes effort to avoid anger and being provoked.  Bill Bixby’s oft quoted line from the late seventies/early eighties series is simply, “Don’t make me angry.  You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.”  We sense in both depictions of the gnarly green giant as the Big Guy begins to calm and Dr. Banner reappears that he is filled with both shame and remorse for the actions that are seemingly beyond his control.

My life as a churchboy mirrored the life of Dr. Banner.  Just as he shared his secret of always being angry with Captain America as they set off into battle, I “shared” my secret with those closest to me.  Only my sharing was done behind closed doors with yelling while red-faced and normally with tight-clenched fists and cursing.  I was not an easy man to live with but I could never let anyone know that and destroy my churchboy facade.  I was always angry.  It didn’t have to be anything in particular that made me that way, but 99.9% of the time it was simply because things were happening that I either disapproved of, did not want to be involved, did not think should happen, or things weren’t happening in the way I wanted quick enough.  Churchboys are convinced there is a correct way to do everything and everything must be done in the correct way.  When things aren’t done in that manner, anger erupts (in private, of course!) and there is collateral damage all around.

The only flaw with Dr. Banner’s secret is the same flaw I had . . . it’s not really a secret, at least not as much as I thought.  His reputation for angry, raging transformation pales in comparison to the disapproving, unhappy, frustrated, and controlling person this churchboy was.  As much as it pains me to admit and remember, I was a miserable person because I was always unhappy, I was always angry, and it was more obvious than I realized.  My life at that time can be described from the opening words of Christ in Matthew 11:28 from The Message: I was tired, worn out, and burned out on religion.

I am so glad that Eugene Peterson did not stop there when he was writing The Message.  He went on to expound on the words of Christ as follows in the verses 28-30:

“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”

Churchboys know nothing about living life in an unforced manner freely and lightly.  They burden themselves with ill-fitting, heavy lists of do’s and don’ts to ensure they keep their image of holiness and godliness intact and making sure their secrets remain just that.  Life without those rules and lists has proven both free and light.  In fact, as I shared in What Is A Churchboy?, I’ve learned I’ve become I’m a nicer person and not near as angry without them.

Living life in this manner is a secret I refuse to keep.

Why Didn’t I Know Sooner

by Rocky Glenn

When Jim Gordon invited Mike Edwards and I to join him as coauthors at Done With Religion, I don’t think any of us anticipated the bond and brotherhood that lie ahead of us.  The three of us have spent the last six months getting to know each other discussing what we believe and why we believe it as well as what we used to believe and why we believed it at the time.  The conversation below is an excerpt of one of those discussions as we speculate why it took so long to arrive at our current beliefs if we truly believe we have become more Christlike as we grow more open-minded and less dogmatic.  Our hopes in sharing this discussion is to encourage those who may be wondering the same and perhaps feeling the same regrets expressed.

Mike:  We believe the way we do now. But we use to believe another way a while back.

I know there aren’t answers but how do we explain to ourselves and others if asked – why doesn’t God show us the light sooner. I know I am assuming we are more enlightened now than years ago. I am assuming it is more Christlike, unless clearly moral like bullying, to come off open-minded than dogmatic.

I think so many more may be open to God if there was so much less dogmatism. I know God isn’t controlling but so many well-meaning leaders and laypeople seem misguided (or perhaps we are the ones wrong) and all of us are simply trying to be faithful to God. I truly think so many are intending to be faithful to God. I dread to think how I would have responded 30 years ago if social media was around.

I’m not convinced it’s because some of us are more moral than others. If we are more enlightened, why weren’t we more enlightened years ago? I must admit watching all this on Facebook, etc. is discouraging, especially when it is Christians. So many of them seem hopeless.

Rocky:  I think your thoughts capture what is possibly my greatest regret . . . the amount of time and number of years I spent not only misbelieving but also misteaching others.  To me the best analogy would be Jesus’s parable of the tares and wheat.  If you remove the tares before it’s time you will remove the wheat also.  Although as we first come out of it our tendency is to discard anything and everything related to what we are leaving behind. The further I am away from it the more I realize there are some foundational truths planted there that remain.

Jim:  As far as why God doesn’t show us the light sooner, I surely do not have the total answer. I do believe it is the timing thing. I think God teaches us and brings us to new understanding only as we are ready for it. I feel there is a reason for the things we go through and I am thankful for the time in the church system. I guess I would not have known the difference if I had not been a part.

So many people in church today are there because they truly believe that is the right way and they truly love God. I know the many years I was a part of it I felt I was doing what God wanted and was learning about him. Really, that system is all we know. That is what we were brought up in and felt was what God intended.

I am thankful that the Spirit lives within us and does not give up on us. I know I had questions over the years but was afraid to ask or just figured there was a reasonable answer that was more than I could understand.

Fortunately, in time those questions and many more came up again and I started thinking and debating with myself about them. It still took years of this plus feeling so unsatisfied at church that caused us to come to the point of leaving. It is all a timing thing.

One thing the three of us are certain of is we are likely not alone in our questioning.  If this is a conversation you find yourself identifying with, we welcome your feedback and would love to hear from you.  What are your thoughts and experiences as you’ve walked out the journey of your faith?